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| | **** So now we are edit warring. Messenger: I did include the phrase about it activating when it's your first buy, so I don't see the problem. As I said, at least the subheading should be "When you buy this, if this is the first buy in a turn". You haven't even done that. Since it activates at the same time as other when-buy events, it should share that wording. Why are you against making it less confusing? Overpay: "When you gain a Duchy" is different from "when you gain a card". The latter activates on ANY card. So the times they activate are different. The overpay effects have nothing to do with timing! They activate on when-you-buy-this, just like all the others. Overpaying is part of '''resolving''' the event. When-buy is the trigger. This is a crucial difference. Then you should also separate "when another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand", "when another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this" and "when another player plays an Attack card, you may play this from your hand". --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT) | | **** So now we are edit warring. Messenger: I did include the phrase about it activating when it's your first buy, so I don't see the problem. As I said, at least the subheading should be "When you buy this, if this is the first buy in a turn". You haven't even done that. Since it activates at the same time as other when-buy events, it should share that wording. Why are you against making it less confusing? Overpay: "When you gain a Duchy" is different from "when you gain a card". The latter activates on ANY card. So the times they activate are different. The overpay effects have nothing to do with timing! They activate on when-you-buy-this, just like all the others. Overpaying is part of '''resolving''' the event. When-buy is the trigger. This is a crucial difference. Then you should also separate "when another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand", "when another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this" and "when another player plays an Attack card, you may play this from your hand". --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT) |
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| − | **** I would see no problem with doing the Reactions that way. The difference between the Reactions and the when-buys is that there are a LOT of when-buy effects, especially with Events now, even if we don't include the ones I don't think we should include. Separating out overpay and Messenger makes the huge block of text easier to parse. It looks better, it reads better. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 15:11, 24 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | **** The point is that it's just something that happens when you resolve it. You didn't address that. Lots of things happen when you resolve a triggered event. Mint's is: "Trash all Treasures you have in play." It has nothing to do with the timing. This is a list of the different timings. I repeat: Overpay has nothing to do with timing. If you disagree, justify it. If not, you're just using this article to highlight stuff that you find interesting instead of making it accurate and clear. Please don't. Since you didn't reply re: Messenger, I'll change that now. I'll keep it as a subheading since that makes you happier. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 15:34, 24 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | **** No reply from you, so I'll change it back again. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 10:28, 27 April 2015 (EDT)
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| | ***** I haven't seen any argument from you. You've just said nothing happens. I've shown you why it does. I've given examples of how Dominion works. Tell me why buying an Event is different from playing a Duration. Consider playing TR on a Duration. Now it's up to you to research this and learn about it. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT) | | ***** I haven't seen any argument from you. You've just said nothing happens. I've shown you why it does. I've given examples of how Dominion works. Tell me why buying an Event is different from playing a Duration. Consider playing TR on a Duration. Now it's up to you to research this and learn about it. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT) |
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| − | ***** My argument is that nothing happens when you buy these cards. If we added a section of "When play" effects, which would essentially be any card in Dominion, I would list Wharf as "+2 Cards, +1 Buy". Because that is what happens when you play it. It also does something at the start of your next turn, but that certainly does not happen when you play it. The whole point of this article is "when do things happen?" and some of these Events have absolutely nothing happen when you buy them. And I would argue that HT and Scheme should be changed on this page to line up with that. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 15:11, 24 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | ***** Research it. Ask about it in the rules forum. See what happens. You're not even addressing how a Throne Room on a Duration can make you get the effect twice next turn according to your understanding. I'm also curious about how exactly you would handle HT? What would you do with the phrase "if you do"? --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 15:34, 24 April 2015 (EDT)
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| | * You know you can sign your name using 4 tildes, right? And feel free to make an actual account on here. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT) | | * You know you can sign your name using 4 tildes, right? And feel free to make an actual account on here. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT) |
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| − | =Redoing it=
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| − | I think it's great that you guys liked my list of when stuff happens enough to put it on the wiki, and are still debating my intentions in doing so in order to decide how to organize it. However, I think the page has gotten out of hand with too many subsections that don't really denote different timing and it's kind of losing sight of its purpose. I'm going to rewrite this list from scratch. [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 20:53, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | * Go for it. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 21:56, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | :: Thanks for doing the cleanup and catching that I missed Prince! [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 11:08, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | *** You're welcome! [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:41, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | * Wow, you changed a lot. I think many of the changes were good. Less subsections and dropping the Events were good calls. However, some inconsistencies and errors have now been introduced. I'm not going to edit this anymore I think, but here are some things I noticed:
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| − | --- --- You can't say that all cards on mats go in deck at the end, because it breaks Distand Lands. See how it was done before.
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| − | --- --- "When you would play a card, first". There has been no ruling that the tokens activate at this time. It could also be just first out out of all "when play" effects. I mean, I think it would be better and clearer if it was "when-would-play", but Donald doesn't seem to be leaning that way.
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| − | --- --- I see no reason to have Expedition and Save at different times. See my previous comment. They are both effectively at end-of-turn.
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| − | --- --- "During your turn" is missing. Both Bridge Troll and the -$2 Cost token both are active at this time.
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| − | --- --- "Your Estates have the types and abilities of the set-aside card." Not accurate, or at least clear, since they also have their own type and ability. It must say "in addition" or something.
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| − | --- --- I see you dropped the notes about Duchess and Embargo being global rules with a reminder on the card. I think it's an important clarification, since cards are cumulative in Dominion.
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| − | --- --- It's not the Events (or Teacher) that have the effect of the tokens. They just move the tokens. Rather it's the tokens themselves. (Also, as worded now, these Events have the same problem as Duchess and Embargo.)
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| − | --- --- Some events have the prerequisite, others don't. "Plan: If the bought card has your Trashing token on it, you may trash a card from your hand." But: "–1 Card token: Lose the token instead." --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 16:43, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | :: 1. Fixed.
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| − | :: 2. At the time I wrote it last night, that was the most consistent interpretation of Donald's most recent ruling. Since right now he's discussing revising it, I'm going to hold off on changing this until he settles on a ruling.
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| − | :: 3. They're both "effectively" at end of turn, but I'm pretty sure as they're written you're obligated to resolve Expedition before resolving Save. I can't think of a situation in which it would matter with respect to Save, but note that Save and Possession have the same "end of turn" wording, and it ''does'' matter that you have to resolve Expedition before getting your trashed cards back from Possession.
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| − | :: 4. Hmm, yeah, that's true. I'm not crazy about the idea of having a single persistent effect listed with two separate timings that have to intersect, but maybe it's fine. I'll think about it.
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| − | :: 5. Fixed.
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| − | :: 6. I don't think that that's important to the topic of ''when'' these effects are resolved, which is all that this list is about.
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| − | :: 7. I suppose, but my default analytical stance in Dominion when possible is that ''everything'' is an effect of the cards (or Events), and the tokens are just there for bookkeeping. That's not always feasible—and hm, I did include the setup instructions for Trade Route here, even though that's ''obviously'' just bookkeeping—but I figure listing things in this index according to what cards (or Events) trigger them, when that's the simplest way to do it, is clearest.
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| − | :: 8. I don't think I understand what you mean here. For Plan / the Trashing token, the triggering effect is "when you buy a card". But the ability is only triggered if you buy a card from that specific pile, so that stipulation goes in the description of the ability. For the –1 Card token, the triggering effect is "when you would draw a card", and no further stipulation is necessary.
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| − | ::[[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 18:06, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | ::: 7. It's not consistent now at least. Look at the -1 Card token and -$1 token.
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| − | ::: 8. The prerequisite for the -1 Card token is that it's on your deck. Otherwise it does nothing. There are in general three things: The timing, the prerequisite(s) and the effect. The timing has to be there. You could argue which of the other two should be included, but it should be consistent ideally. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 22:13, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | :::: 7. Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are these not consistent with each other, or not consistent with other tokens, or what? In any event, since multiple cards/Events use the same tokens, we are forced to bite the bullet and say that the effects here are effects of the tokens, not of the cards. But that's not the case for Ferry, Plan, and Inheritance.
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| − | :::: 8. Yes, the prerequisite for the –1 card token is that it must be on your deck, much as the prerequisite for Wharf is that it must have been played on the previous turn, and which for the sake of sanity is considered beyond the scope of this list. But for Plan, the prerequisite might be "the Trashing token is on a pile", but if the timing is "when you buy a card", the effect can't just be "you may trash a card from your hand" since it depends on ''which'' card you bought. So unless we want to have separate sub-sub-lists for "when you buy a card that the Trashing token is on", "when you buy a Duchy", "when you buy a Province", and so on—'''which we do not'''—then "if the bought card has the Trashing token on it" has to also be part of the effect. I thought about not even having the two sub-lists of "when you buy this" and "when you buy a card", and just having "when you buy a card" with effects like "if the bought card is a Farmland, trash…" and "if the bought card is a Port, gain…"; but I figured for the sake of conciseness having two sub-lists was okay. [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 14:39, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | ::::: 7. The -1 Card token and -$1 token are not consistent with how you described the other tokens. The other tokens (not just erry, Plan, and Inheritance) are described as effects of the cards. You could do this with the -1 Card token and -$1 token too, just list them under Bridge Troll etc... That would at least be consistent. But I think it's problematic listing them as effects of cards anyway. It's not the intention. The text in parenthesis is a reminder, not a rule on the event card.
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| − | ::::: 8. Yeah, this is the problem with a list like this. It doesn't say when exactly the different triggers are in effect, although it's supposed to be about timing. It could just list all the triggers of course, just so we could see which effects trigger at the same time. That would mean dropping "If you set this aside" from Horse Traders (as the most obvious example), "If the card's supply pile has your token on it" etc, "If the Action is still in play" from Royal Carriage, "If it is the chosen card" from Scheme, "If it was played by Prince this turn" and "play the set aside action" (instead of "play the action") from Prince, "If this is in your deck" from Stash, "If the played card is an Action" from Champion, "If you have at least $2 unspent" from Wine Merchant, "If it is your turn"... Now these prerequisites are there, but others are missing, like the ones who tell you that you must have set up a trigger for it to be in effect, like for Possession, Mission, Scheme (start of clean-up), Prince (start of turn), Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Duration effects... and also states like for Bridge, Coppersmith, Contraband, Travelling Fair, Possession... You could drop all descriptions of having set up something I guess, since you mention that in the article. That would at least mean dropping it from Horse Traders, Prince and Scheme. Those are pure set-up effects, not actually checking anything when they trigger. Getting to the original point: If you argue that the Trashing token needs to check if you bought from its pile, it would be exactly the same for the -1 Card token. It needs to check whether it's on your pile. Does these checks trigger on-buy/on-draw or are the checks actually part of the trigger? It's like for Hoard. It triggers on-buy, but does it trigger on every buy, checking if it was a Victory card, or does it trigger just when you buy a Victory card? Functionally it's the same. But if it's part of the trigger, you need more subheadings, which you don't want. If it's not part of the trigger, you're introducing prerequisites that don't even have anything to do with being set up, so (if you want everything except description of how you set up things) I guess then they should all be included. I don't think this list was consistent before your big change either, but I think it was more so. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 16:16, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
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| − | =Mistake=
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| − | I noticed another mistake: "(effects that change locations of other effects' gains, listed below, trigger afterwards)"
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| − | There are no effects like this. Watchtower and Royal Seal move the cards after they have been gained, they don't change the location, that's the reason they trigger afterwards. Since editing the wiki will just lead to ut being reverted with no explanation, I'll just note it here in case anyone wants to battle to get it corrected.
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| − | I also see that Urchin is again missing that it has to be in play. See previous discussion above. --[[Special:Contributions/189.157.61.11|189.157.61.11]] 10:57, 21 April 2016 (EDT)
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| − | * Feel free to make those changes. And feel free to register as a user, Jeebus. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 11:20, 22 April 2016 (EDT)
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| − | == Beginning of game and other setup effects ==
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| − | Should Ruins, Shelters, Platinum/Colony and Potion be included in the "beginning of game" section? [[User:ConMan|ConMan]] ([[User talk:ConMan|talk]]) 00:52, 4 May 2016 (EDT)
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