Talk:Triggered effects

Revision as of 12:19, 24 April 2015

Werothegreat, you made several changes reverting what I did.

Instead of an edit war, here is my rational for what I think should be changed back.

1) "Overpay cards and Messenger all trigger on when-buy."

Your comment: "It's useful to make distinctions like this."

The point of this page, which was originally based on AJD's list, was to categorize when cards do things (except when you play them). I recommend you read this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4651.0 The fact is that Messenger and the overpay cards all trigger on when-buy. It's confusing and unnecessary to separate them when this is the case. This is also important for correctly resolving actual rules questions regarding timing of events. For instance, the fact that Messenger triggers on when-buy means that you can buy Messenger and gain the card from Messenger before having to put your hand on your deck from a played Haunted Woods. Maybe you choose to gain a Curse with Messenger, trashing it with a Watchtower in your hand (that you haven't put on your deck yet).

• Yes, they are on buy, but it is useful to separate them out. It's easier to read, and it's less repetitive text. The overpay cards are all overpay, and overpay is something unique and interesting, and worth noting. Having them all under the same heading makes it more compact. And having Messenger under "first buy this turn" does not make it not "when buy"; it is simply useful to note that it's *only* on the first buy, especially since that is how it is worded on the card. I stand by how this is currently. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

• • About overpay: The point is not to note unique and interesting mechanics. Coin tokens are also a unique and interesting mechanic, but noting them doesn't belong here. The point should be to be as clear as possible, and the timing is when-buy, plain and simple. If Messenger is not when-buy, what is it? When does it actually trigger? And please explain why. --187.133.14.206 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • I'm not saying they don't trigger on buy. They do, that's why they're still under that heading. "Overpay" and "first buy" are both subheadings. There are other categories on this page with subheadings. Werothegreat (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • Sorry, I had misread your previous comment. (I skipped a "not".) Regarding Messenger: The problem is that it's not obvious that subheadings are functionally the same as the heading. Sometimes it's not at all, like "directly after resolving an Action" being a subheading of "when you play a card". (Those are at different times.) Ultimately the point here is to make the timings clear. This is not doing that. It's worded differently and under a different heading. We should not follow the card texts slavishly (like I've said many times already) but state exactly when the timing is. Messenger is when-buy, so that should be clear. At least the subheading should be "When you buy this, if this is the first buy in a turn". Regarding overpay: As I said, overpay doesn't even have anything to do with timing, so a separate subheading here is nonsense and just confusing. --187.133.14.206 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • Messenger activating only when it's your first buy that turn is important. I vehemently disagree that it's confusing having it under it's own subheading, it's quite obvious. Similarly, overpay is a distinct effect shared by those cards. Under "when you gain a card" there are subheadings for "gain a Duchy" for Duchess and "gain a card costing up to for Duplicate. If you just put Duchess under "when you gain a card" and said "If the gained card was a Duchy, gain a Duchess" that would be silly. It makes sense to have subheadings. I'm changing these back. Werothegreat (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

2) "Save, Travelling Fair, Expedition, Mission: Future events are set up on when-buy, and needs to be included here. Compare Horse Traders, Scheme (or when-play of Durations etc)."

Your comment: "Not all Events do things when you Buy them."

That is false. The ones in question set up later events when you buy them. As I said, see Horse Traders and Scheme on this very page. Many cards in Dominion work like this. When you play a Caravan, you get +1 Card +1 Action and also set up an event to happen at the start of your next turn. All those things happen when you play it (which is why they happen again if you Throne Room Caravan.) These Events have to include setting up events, since it happens at the moment you buy them. If you still don't agree, you'd have to change Horse Traders and Scheme too on this page (maybe others). But you would be changing how the list on this page is supposed to work.

• I would rather change how HT/Scheme are worded. The effects Save/TF/etc have do not happen when they are bought; they happen at different times, which, again, is the whole purpose of this page. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

• • I explained that the effects are set up when they are bought. How would you note that this happens when they are bought? Setting up later effects is an essential part of timing in Dominion. I'm not sure of you understand it? --187.133.14.206 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • The point is that nothing actually happens - nothing triggers - when you buy these cards. The "event" happens later on. Werothegreat (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • As I've said, you're wrong. It does. I suggest you go to the forums and ask about this. Maybe that will help you understand it. In the meantime I'll change it back, since you haven't presented any counter-argument. --187.133.14.206 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • I've given my counterargument. Please show me a post from Donald X or similar authority or some actual agreement from other wiki editors supporting your position. If you can't, I'm changing it back. Werothegreat (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

3) Champion

I don't know why you added it to "While this is in play". This is wrong. The card could be trashed (with Procession) and still have the effects.

• You are correct here, sorry. Fixed. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

4) "Champion and Lighthouse are the same. Neither is an event that happens when a player plays an Attack."

Your comment: "It says right on Champion and Lighthouse "when another player plays an Attack card", so these need to be here."

Just because it says that, doesn't mean it's the correct timing. See Nomad Camp, Band of Misfits...

This is a bit more subtle, but I gave my reason for this not being a when-play effect here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4651.msg206154#msg206154 Essentially, an Attack card (like all cards) can have several effects (+3 cards, each other player gains a curse, etc). Only the effects that would affect you (the "defending" player) don't affect you if you use Lighthouse or Champion. So nothing really happens when the Attack card is played. It's later, when we resolve each effect of the card from top to bottom, that there's a difference for some of the effects (if you use Lighthouse/Champion). So Lighthouse/Champion are clearly not when-play effects. If they are events, they would be when-something-would-affect-you-from-a-played-Attack. I think it's better to say that they are states that are active while in play (Lighthouse) or for the rest of the game (Champion).

• And AJD disagreed with your reasoning there. I think it should remain as is. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

• • No, he didn't. He replied: "Hmm, maybe." Please present your argument, don't just say "it should remain". --187.133.14.206 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • When someone plays an Attack, you look down at your play area and see, yeah, I have a Lighthouse/Champion here. That's when you're thinking of the cards, and that's when the cards trigger. What I am finding interesting is that you object to Lighthouse/Champion being "when-play", arguing that they don't actually do something until later, but you seem to be making the opposite argument with Events as being "when-buy". Werothegreat (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • I don't see you're point about what I'm arguing. I'm for "when-x" when that is actually correct (like almost all places on this page where it's used). I'm against "when-x" when it's incorrect (like almost all places on this page where it's not used). To the discussion: Thinking about a card doesn't make it trigger. It's like saying that Bridge triggers when you buy a card or interact with the cost of a card in another way, because that's when you think about it. It doesn't. It triggers when you play it, changing the costs. The cost change is a state that lasts for the rest of your turn. We don't have a trigger that changes the costs back. That's why "for the rest of this turn" is a state, not a triggered event. If you want a triggered event for Lighthouse/Champion, it would be when-something-would-affect-you-from-a-played-Attack. Think about it: Nothing affects you when I play a Witch. On when-play of my Witch is when a Reaction to a played attack is triggered. After that, I resolve the Witch, going effect by effect. First I draw 2 cards. Does this affect you? No. Then I hand out Curses. Now you get one. Does this affect you? Yes. This is the moment (or actually right before it actually happens) that your Lighthouse/Champion kicks in. This is when you need your event trigger. But as I said, it's more useful and clearer to just describe it as a state. I'll change it now. --187.133.14.206 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • I'll let this one go because it's minor and I'm tired of arguing it. Werothegreat (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

5) During your turns (instead of "turn").

"Turn" is better. We don't write "during your buy phases", "in the clean-up phases" etc.

• Both BT and Ferry say "turns". Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

• • It's to make the card clearer, not because it's functionally different than for instance Guide's "at the start of your turn" or Peddler's "during your buy phase" or Walled Village's "at the start of clean-up". They all apply to several turns. It's important to realize that the card text is not always 100% accurate. --187.133.14.206 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • Still, both cards with this trigger say "on/during your turns". Werothegreat (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • I repeat again: Don't trust the wording on the card texts. Consider it instead. Take a look in the rule book. "Ferry: Your -$2 cost token [...] makes cards from that pile cost $2 less [...] on your turns." But: "Tokens: The -$2 cost token [...] reduces the cost of cards from that pile on a particular player's turn." Why do you think it says both "turns" and "turn"? I'm going to change this now. Ask in the forums if you still disagree. --187.133.14.206 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • Fine. Werothegreat (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

6) Urchin

You changed it from "While this is in play, when you play another Attack card" to "When you play an Attack card".

First of all, it needs to be "another", as I noted, or it's just wrong.

Second, other cards have the "while this is in play" prefix, so this is at least not consistent.

• I'll change it to "another", but this fits best under the "when you play a card" subheading, rather than under its own. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

• • It has its own subheading now, "when you play another Attack card". As I said, it's not consistent to have it without "while this is in play". Will you remove it from Goons, Haggler, Merchant Guild, Hoard, Talisman and Royal Seal then? I think it's more helpful to keep it. --187.133.14.206 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • Urchin is still under "While this is in play". But I see what you're saying about Goons/etc, and amended the subheading. Werothegreat (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

• • • • I see you changed this, but I would prefer to match card text where possible, so I'm changing it back. Werothegreat (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

--Jeebus

• You know you can sign your name using 4 tildes, right? And feel free to make an actual account on here. Werothegreat (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)