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| | === Other rules clarifications === | | === Other rules clarifications === |
| − | * The important part of getting around Siren's self-trashing effect is to move it ''when'' it's gained. This is why {{Card|Insignia}} works, but the following does not: | + | * If you have an Action in hand, you can decline to trash it, just to trash the Siren. This can be useful for triggering when-trash effects (such as {{Project|Sewers}} or {{Card|Market Square}}). |
| − | ** Some cards directly gain a card somewhere (e.g. {{Event|Invasion}} gains an Action directly onto your deck). This does not actually move the Siren, so it will still trash itself.
| + | * Some effects (e.g., {{Event|Rush}}) can move a gained Siren; the Siren loses track of itself, and it can't trash itself. However, some effects (e.g., {{Card|Spell Scroll}}) aren't able to move a gained Siren in time; the Siren trashes itself, and then the {{Card|Spell Scroll}} can't play it. |
| − | ** A few other cards gain a card and then move it later. So if you gain a Siren with {{Card|Spell Scroll}}, the Siren will trash itself, and the {{Card|Spell Scroll}} will fail to play it.
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| − | * If you have an Action in hand, you can decline to trash it, and let the Siren trash itself. This may still be useful if you want to trigger when-trash effects (such as {{Project|Sewers}} or {{Card|Market Square}}).
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| | == Strategy == | | == Strategy == |
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| | ! Print !! Digital !! Text !! Release !! Date | | ! Print !! Digital !! Text !! Release !! Date |
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| − | | {{CardLangVersionImage}} || {{CardLangVersionImage|d=s}} || Each other player gains a Curse. At the start of your next turn, draw until you have 8 cards in hand.{{Divline}}When you gain this, trash it unless you trash an Action from your hand. || Plunder || December 2022 | + | | {{CardLangVersionImage}} || {{CardLangVersionImage|d=1}} || Each other player gains a Curse. At the start of your next turn, draw until you have 8 cards in hand.{{divline}}When you gain this, trash it unless you trash an Action from your hand. || Plunder || December 2022 |
| | |} | | |} |
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| | {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;" | | {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;" |
| | ! Language !! Name !! Print !! Digital !! Text !! Notes | | ! Language !! Name !! Print !! Digital !! Text !! Notes |
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| − | !Dutch
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| − | | Sirene || {{CardLangVersionImage|Dutch}} || {{CardLangVersionImage|Dutch|d=1}} || Iedere andere speler pakt een Vloek. Aan het begin van je volgende beurt:<br>trek kaarten totdat je er 8 in je hand hebt.{{divline}}Als je deze kaart pakt, vernietig hemdan, tenzij je een actiekaart uit je hand vernietigt. || (2023)
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| | !German | | !German |
| − | | Sirene || {{CardLangVersionImage|German}} || {{CardLangVersionImage|German|d=s}} || Jeder Mitspieler nimmt einen Fluch. Zieh zu Beginn deines nächsten Zuges, bis du 8 Handkarten hast.{{Divline}}Wenn du diese Karte nimmst, entsorge sie, es sei denn, du entsorgst eine Aktionskarte aus deiner Hand. || (2023) | + | | Sirene || {{CardLangVersionImage|German}} || {{CardLangVersionImage|German|d=1}} || Jeder Mitspieler nimmt einen Fluch.<br>Zieh zu Beginn deines nächsten<br>Zuges, bis du 8 Handkarten hast.{{divline}}Wenn du diese Karte nimmst,<br>entsorge sie, es sei denn, du<br>entsorgst eine Aktionskarte<br>aus deiner Hand. || |
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| − | !Polish
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| − | | Syrena || {{CardLangVersionImage|Polish}} || || Każdy z pozostałych graczy dodaje Klątwę. Na początku twojej następnej tury: dobieraj karty aż będziesz miał ich 8 na ręce.{{Divline}}Kiedy dodajesz tę kartę, wyrzuć ją na Śmietnisko, chyba że wyrzucisz na Śmietnisko kartę Akcji z ręki. || (2023)
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| | |} | | |} |
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| | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21533.0 * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *] | | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21533.0 * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *] |
| | }} | | }} |
| | + | |
| | === Secret History === | | === Secret History === |
| − | {{Quote|Text= A flavor-based card; what could a Siren do? They lure sailors to their deaths, but I didn't want an attack that punished Duration cards. Finally I thought of having to trash an Action to get one. And that's that, the card was done. | + | <!--{{Quote|Text= |
| | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] |
| − | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21589.msg899073#msg899073 The Secret History of Dominion: Plunder] | + | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic= The Secret History of Plunder] |
| | }} | | }} |
| − | === Rules ===
| + | --> |
| − | Many tricks around dodging Siren's self-trashing effect require knowledge of the [[stop-moving rule]], and paying attention to how specific cards are phrased.
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| − | {{Quote|Text=
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| − | There were concerns about, making it work, and making it clear how it worked.
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| − | At some point, when I've got a cool card on my hands and you can say, "but these interactions require you to know the stop moving rule," I throw my hands in the air and say, "15th [[expansions|expansion]]!" It's the 15th expansion. The cards have to keep doing new things. This is what happens.
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| − | Maybe there is a phrasing that better does the concept, with less rules knowledge invoked. When you look for it, make sure to avoid "would," and try to keep the text fitting on the card in that font size.
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| − | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]]
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| − | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg899651#msg899651 Interview with Donald X.]
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| − | }}
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| − | {{Quote|Text=
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| − | I wouldn't possibly have said "additional costs must be paid to gain cards" or what have you; when you gain a card directly, you aren't paying the cost, and man let's not confuse those things.
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| − | The best way to do an additional cost is to make a symbol for it and put it right in the cost, like {{Cost|P}}. I've considered that family of mechanics, for different costs. Then of course you couldn't {{Card|Workshop}} it. So far I haven't felt like I was getting enough there, relative to how confusing symbols in the cost have turned out to be.
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| − | I could have just added "first" to get rid of a bunch of the combos and thus confusion associated with them. Somehow I didn't.
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| − | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]]
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| − | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg899714#msg899714 Interview with Donald X.]
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| − | }}
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| − | {{Quote|Text=
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| − | The Siren shenanigans aren't a deliberate part of the design. They're just what fell out of the wording.
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| − | For me the combos mostly came up in online testing. And I had fun with them and also may have signed off on the set already, not sure. But I didn't think, "wait this requires knowing stuff." It was just me and the bot, and the bot was showing me what for.
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| − | As I mentioned there's "first." "When you gain this, first…" I didn't consider that at the time. I haven't worked through if it basically fixes it. "When you gain this, first," if ever used, does not mean "when you buy this." "When you gain this" happens directly after putting the card wherever it goes, e.g. in the discard pile. "First" means "before other things that trigger at the same time." (Except, if multiple things have "first" then obv. you still order those between each other.)
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| − | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]]
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| − | |Source=[https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/212660788786102272/1066421071303168061 Dominion Discord, 2023]
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| − | }}
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| − | === Complexity ===
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| − | Donald X. has since said that Siren was the biggest mistake in {{Set|Plunder}}.
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| − | {{Quote|Text=
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| − | I remain pleased with [[Loot]] and displeased with [[Hex]]es. There are just a few cards in {{Set|Plunder}} that are an issue in terms of complexity, with Siren standing out.
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| − | Obv. 100% of the issue with Siren is, under what circumstances do you get around needing to trash something. You can't get away from needing rules for "what if we lose track of a card" unless your game rules out broad swaths of effects. You can simplify things by e.g. not letting you {{Card|Throne Room|Throne}} a {{Card|Horse}}, but that ship has sailed (and it did something twice on the next turn).
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| − | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]]
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| − | |Source=[https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/212660788786102272/1087489541708972073 Dominion Discord, 2023]
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| − | }}
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| − | {{Quote|Text=
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| − | I would be removing most of the combos if the card weren't published yet. And it's still possible for a reprint someday. My first guess is, "When you gain this, first..."
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| − | 100% of the problem with cheating on Siren is that it's too complex. People know it's possible and still aren't sure which things work and which don't. If it were simple it would be fine.
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| − | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]]
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| − | |Source=[https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/212660788786102272/1093265816675430500 Dominion Discord, 2023]
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| − | }}
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| | {{Navbox Plunder}} | | {{Navbox Plunder}} |
| | {{Navbox Cards}} | | {{Navbox Cards}} |
