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| | * In addition to Ajd's remarks, Triumph is reliant on a strong Engine, and strong draw cards tend to cost {{cost|5}}, which competes with Bandit Camp, so it would be slow to set up. Meanwhile, a Money strategy involving Bandit Camp and Guildhall would work independent of the rest of the Kingdom, but would definitely be helped by the presence of a cheap trasher that can remove the starting stop cards to keep the deck cycling about once every 2 turns. The Villages also provide a little more freedom with terminals than you would normally have in a Money strategy. Also, +1 Coffers is far more valuable than +{{Cost|1}}. As with any Money strategy, it will start to choke on green if it needs to gain more than 4 Provinces, so if there is an alternate form of VP in the game (such as Triumph), an opponent could ignore Provinces and go for that instead. I agree that Triumph is better under the correct circumstances, but Guildhall is definitely worth a Synergy mention. [[User:SignError]] ([[User talk:SignError|talk]]) 23:25, 8 July 2021 (MDT) | | * In addition to Ajd's remarks, Triumph is reliant on a strong Engine, and strong draw cards tend to cost {{cost|5}}, which competes with Bandit Camp, so it would be slow to set up. Meanwhile, a Money strategy involving Bandit Camp and Guildhall would work independent of the rest of the Kingdom, but would definitely be helped by the presence of a cheap trasher that can remove the starting stop cards to keep the deck cycling about once every 2 turns. The Villages also provide a little more freedom with terminals than you would normally have in a Money strategy. Also, +1 Coffers is far more valuable than +{{Cost|1}}. As with any Money strategy, it will start to choke on green if it needs to gain more than 4 Provinces, so if there is an alternate form of VP in the game (such as Triumph), an opponent could ignore Provinces and go for that instead. I agree that Triumph is better under the correct circumstances, but Guildhall is definitely worth a Synergy mention. [[User:SignError]] ([[User talk:SignError|talk]]) 23:25, 8 July 2021 (MDT) |
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| − | :* Sure, we can agree to not compare to Triumph, though I do not at all agree that setting up an engine is slow just because Bandit Camp and some draw cards both cost $5 - there are often other draw options, and the payoff frequently outscores provinces. I'm still not convinced Guildhall is worth mentioning as a 'notable synergy', which up until this point has meant "2 card combinations that are game-losing to miss".
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| − | :: For starters, Guildhall has far stronger synergies in Beggar (a monolithic strat) and Treasure Trove (less strong monolithic strat). In terms of statistical evidence, Bandit Camp does not appear in Guildhall's impacted cards (i.e., in the presence of Guildhall, what cards are gained more?) and vice-versa. That's pretty damning. Instead you see Guildhall with Jack, Fool (Lucky Coin), Trove, Masterpiece, Beggar, etc. (so heavy treasure gainers, and money enablers) while Bandit Camp has Artisan, Silk Merchant, Ranger, Wharf, Altar, etc. (so strong terminals and engine pieces). In modern random Dominion engines are far more commonly viable than money strategies, and so I think with that context we see from the stats that Bandit Camp fits well into a lot of engines, and in many engines you're most concerned with the steps of deck control and ramping payload, rather than money density. Adding +1 Coffers to Bandit Camp is somewhat equivalent to adding a Baker per copy of Bandit Camp. Adding Bakers is usually not a great way to ramp payload, as you've only added $1 to your economic output, and typically you only do so when draw is tight (i.e., good thinning but no net +handsize), and mass Coffers aren't as amazing for engines as they are for money strats. I'd expect to take Bandit Camp over e.g. vanillage specifically when there's draw available, otherwise I'm just self-junking my engine. And if there's draw available, I'm just adding more draw (piles/gamestate/terminal space permitting) in order to draw those Spoils. So Guildhall just seems worse in the majority of engine cases to me.
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| − | :: For the money case, I'm not convinced this is a monolithic thing. In my testing with Silvers, BC, GH into Provinces I average a little under 14 turns for 4 Provinces, which I think is on the level of Smithy money. Smithy money is not a notable synergy in modern random Dominion as that benchmark isn't very impressive or realistically useful, so I don't see this being very different. You've listed a bunch of nice things BC/GH has going for it, but I'm not convinced it's enough to overcome its main drawback - namely, that almost all of BC's benefit is seen on the next shuffle, and money decks typically have big, untrimmed shuffles. In my testing this means this is just super slow to get off the ground - you get ~2 BCs and a Guildhall by the end of turn 6, and don't start provincing till you make it through that next shuffle, around t10. Money strats win by provincing early and reliably faster than an engine can get off the ground, and this doesn't seem like such a case. Incidentally it did seem that this takes 6+ provinces far better than a lot of other money variants, i.e. it doesn't choke on green (typically 8 prov by t19) though that's not enough to overcome the slow start. --[[User:Terracubist|Terracubist]] ([[User talk:Terracubist|talk]]) 13:58, 9 July 2021 (EDT)
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