Editing Talk:Triggered effects

Werothegreat, you made several changes reverting what I did.

Instead of an edit war, here is my rational for what I think should be changed back.


1) "Overpay cards and Messenger all trigger on when-buy."

Your comment: "It's useful to make distinctions like this."

The point of this page, which was originally based on AJD's list, was to categorize when cards do things (except when you play them). I recommend you read this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4651.0
The fact is that Messenger and the overpay cards all trigger on when-buy. It's confusing and unnecessary to separate them when this is the case. This is also important for correctly resolving actual rules questions regarding timing of events. For instance, the fact that Messenger triggers on when-buy means that you can buy Messenger and gain the card from Messenger before having to put your hand on your deck from a played Haunted Woods. Maybe you choose to gain a Curse with Messenger, trashing it with a Watchtower in your hand (that you haven't put on your deck yet).

* Yes, they are on buy, but it is useful to separate them out.  It's easier to read, and it's less repetitive text.  The overpay cards are all overpay, and overpay is something unique and interesting, and worth noting.  Having them all under the same heading makes it more compact.  And having Messenger under "first buy this turn" does not make it not "when buy"; it is simply useful to note that it's *only* on the first buy, especially since that is how it is worded on the card.  I stand by how this is currently.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

** About overpay: The point is not to note unique and interesting mechanics. Coin tokens are also a unique and interesting mechanic, but noting them doesn't belong here. The point should be to be as clear as possible, and the timing is when-buy, plain and simple. If Messenger is not when-buy, what is it? When does it actually trigger? And please explain why. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

*** I'm not saying they don't trigger on buy.  They do, that's why they're still under that heading.  "Overpay" and "first buy" are both subheadings.  There are other categories on this page with subheadings.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** Sorry, I had misread your previous comment. (I skipped a "not".) Regarding Messenger: The problem is that it's not obvious that subheadings are functionally the same as the heading. Sometimes it's not at all, like "directly after resolving an Action" being a subheading of "when you play a card". (Those are at different times.) Ultimately the point here is to make the timings clear. This is not doing that. It's worded differently and under a different heading. We should not follow the card texts slavishly (like I've said many times already) but state exactly when the timing is. Messenger is when-buy, so that should be clear. At least the subheading should be "When you buy this, if this is the first buy in a turn". Regarding overpay: As I said, overpay doesn't even have anything to do with timing, so a separate subheading here is nonsense and just confusing. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** Messenger activating only when it's your first buy that turn is important.  I vehemently disagree that it's confusing having it under it's own subheading, it's quite obvious.  Similarly, overpay is a distinct effect shared by those cards.  Under "when you gain a card" there are subheadings for "gain a Duchy" for Duchess and "gain a card costing up to {{Cost|6}} for Duplicate.  If you just put Duchess under "when you gain a card" and said "If the gained card was a Duchy, gain a Duchess" that would be silly.  It makes sense to have subheadings.  I'm changing these back.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** So now we are edit warring. Messenger: I did include the phrase about it activating when it's your first buy, so I don't see the problem. As I said, at least the subheading should be "When you buy this, if this is the first buy in a turn". You haven't even done that. Since it activates at the same time as other when-buy events, it should share that wording. Why are you against making it less confusing? Overpay: "When you gain a Duchy" is different from "when you gain a card". The latter activates on ANY card. So the times they activate are different. The overpay effects have nothing to do with timing! They activate on when-you-buy-this, just like all the others. Then you should also separate "when another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand", "when another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this" and "when another player plays an Attack card, you may play this from your hand". --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I would see no problem with doing the Reactions that way.  The difference between the Reactions and the when-buys is that there are a LOT of when-buy effects, especially with Events now, even if we don't include the ones I don't think we should include.  Separating out overpay and Messenger makes the huge block of text easier to parse.  It looks better, it reads better. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 15:11, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** The point is that it's just something that happens when you resolve it. You didn't address that. Lots of things happen when you resolve a triggered event. Mint's is: "Trash all Treasures you have in play." It has nothing to do with the timing. This is a list of the different timings. I repeat: Overpay has nothing to do with timing. If you disagree, justify it. If not, you're just using this article to highlight stuff that you find interesting instead of making it accurate and clear. Please don't. Since you didn't reply re: Messenger, I'll change that now. I'll keep it as a subheading since that makes you happier. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 15:34, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** No reply from you, so I'll change it back again. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 10:28, 27 April 2015 (EDT)


2) "Save, Travelling Fair, Expedition, Mission: Future events are set up on when-buy, and needs to be included here. Compare Horse Traders, Scheme (or when-play of Durations etc)."

Your comment: "Not all Events do things when you Buy them."

That is false. The ones in question set up later events when you buy them. As I said, see Horse Traders and Scheme on this very page. Many cards in Dominion work like this. When you play a Caravan, you get +1 Card +1 Action and also set up an event to happen at the start of your next turn. All those things happen when you play it (which is why they happen again if you Throne Room Caravan.) These Events have to include setting up events, since it happens at the moment you buy them. If you still don't agree, you'd have to change Horse Traders and Scheme too on this page (maybe others). But you would be changing how the list on this page is supposed to work.

* I would rather change how HT/Scheme are worded.  The effects Save/TF/etc have do not happen when they are bought; they happen at different times, which, again, is the whole purpose of this page.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

** I explained that the effects are set up when they are bought. How would you note that this happens when they are bought? Setting up later effects is an essential part of timing in Dominion. I'm not sure of you understand it? --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

*** The point is that nothing actually happens - nothing triggers - when you buy these cards.  The "event" happens later on.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** As I've said, you're wrong. It does. I suggest you go to the forums and ask about this. Maybe that will help you understand it. In the meantime I'll change it back, since you haven't presented any counter-argument. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I've given my counterargument.  Please show me a post from Donald X or similar authority or some actual agreement from other wiki editors supporting your position.  If you can't, I'm changing it back.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

***** I haven't seen any argument from you. You've just said nothing happens. I've shown you why it does. I've given examples of how Dominion works. Tell me why buying an Event is different from playing a Duration. Consider playing TR on a Duration. Now it's up to you to research this and learn about it. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

***** My argument is that nothing happens when you buy these cards.  If we added a section of "When play" effects, which would essentially be any card in Dominion, I would list Wharf as "+2 Cards, +1 Buy".  Because that is what happens when you play it.  It also does something at the start of your next turn, but that certainly does not happen when you play it.  The whole point of this article is "when do things happen?" and some of these Events have absolutely nothing happen when you buy them.  And I would argue that HT and Scheme should be changed on this page to line up with that. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 15:11, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

***** Research it. Ask about it in the rules forum. See what happens. You're not even addressing how a Throne Room on a Duration can make you get the effect twice next turn according to your understanding. I'm also curious about how exactly you would handle HT? What would you do with the phrase "if you do"? --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 15:34, 24 April 2015 (EDT)


3) Champion

I don't know why you added it to "While this is in play". This is wrong. The card could be trashed (with Procession) and still have the effects.

* You are correct here, sorry.  Fixed.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)


4) "Champion and Lighthouse are the same. Neither is an event that happens when a player plays an Attack."

Your comment: "It says right on Champion and Lighthouse "when another player plays an Attack card", so these need to be here."

Just because it says that, doesn't mean it's the correct timing. See Nomad Camp, Band of Misfits...

This is a bit more subtle, but I gave my reason for this not being a when-play effect here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4651.msg206154#msg206154
Essentially, an Attack card (like all cards) can have several effects (+3 cards, each other player gains a curse, etc). Only the effects that would affect you (the "defending" player) don't affect you if you use Lighthouse or Champion. So nothing really happens when the Attack card is played. It's later, when we resolve each effect of the card from top to bottom, that there's a difference for some of the effects (if you use Lighthouse/Champion). So Lighthouse/Champion are clearly not when-play effects. If they are events, they would be when-something-would-affect-you-from-a-played-Attack. I think it's better to say that they are states that are active while in play (Lighthouse) or for the rest of the game (Champion).

* And AJD disagreed with your reasoning there.  I think it should remain as is.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

** No, he didn't. He replied: "Hmm, maybe." Please present your argument, don't just say "it should remain". --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

*** When someone plays an Attack, you look down at your play area and see, yeah, I have a Lighthouse/Champion here.  That's when you're thinking of the cards, and that's when the cards trigger.  What I am finding interesting is that you object to Lighthouse/Champion being "when-play", arguing that they don't actually do something until later, but you seem to be making the opposite argument with Events as being "when-buy".  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I don't see you're point about what I'm arguing. I'm for "when-x" when that is actually correct (like almost all places on this page where it's used). I'm against "when-x" when it's incorrect (like almost all places on this page where it's not used). To the discussion: Thinking about a card doesn't make it trigger. It's like saying that Bridge triggers when you buy a card or interact with the cost of a card in another way, because that's when you think about it. It doesn't. It triggers when you play it, changing the costs. The cost change is a state that lasts for the rest of your turn. We don't have a trigger that changes the costs back. That's why "for the rest of this turn" is a state, not a triggered event. If you want a triggered event for Lighthouse/Champion, it would be when-something-would-affect-you-from-a-played-Attack. Think about it: Nothing affects you when I play a Witch. On when-play of my Witch is when a Reaction to a played attack is triggered. After that, I resolve the Witch, going effect by effect. First I draw 2 cards. Does this affect you? No. Then I hand out Curses. Now you get one. Does this affect you? Yes. This is the moment (or actually right before it actually happens) that your Lighthouse/Champion kicks in. This is when you need your event trigger. But as I said, it's more useful and clearer to just describe it as a state. I'll change it now. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I'll let this one go because it's minor and I'm tired of arguing it.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)


5) During your turns (instead of "turn").

"Turn" is better. We don't write "during your buy phases", "in the clean-up phases" etc.

* Both BT and Ferry say "turns".  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

** It's to make the card clearer, not because it's functionally different than for instance Guide's "at the start of your turn" or Peddler's "during your buy phase" or Walled Village's "at the start of clean-up". They all apply to several turns. It's important to realize that the card text is not always 100% accurate. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

*** Still, both cards with this trigger say "on/during your turns".  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I repeat again: Don't trust the wording on the card texts. Consider it instead. Take a look in the rule book. '''"Ferry: Your -$2 cost token [...] makes cards from that pile cost $2 less [...] on your turns."''' But: '''"Tokens: The -$2 cost token [...] reduces the cost of cards from that pile on a particular player's turn."''' Why do you think it says both "turns" and "turn"? I'm going to change this now. Ask in the forums if you still disagree. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 11:22, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** Fine.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)


6) Urchin

You changed it from "While this is in play, when you play another Attack card" to "When you play an Attack card".

First of all, it needs to be "another", as I noted, or it's just wrong.

Second, other cards have the "while this is in play" prefix, so this is at least not consistent.

* I'll change it to "another", but this fits best under the "when you play a card" subheading, rather than under its own.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

** It has its own subheading now, "when you play another Attack card". As I said, it's not consistent to have it without "while this is in play". Will you remove it from Goons, Haggler, Merchant Guild, Hoard, Talisman and Royal Seal then? I think it's more helpful to keep it. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 00:01, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

*** Urchin is still under "While this is in play".  But I see what you're saying about Goons/etc, and amended the subheading.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 00:29, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I see you changed this, but I would prefer to match card text where possible, so I'm changing it back.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:19, 24 April 2015 (EDT)

**** I agree in general, but the point of this list is to group things that happen at the same time. That's why we should use the same wording in the headlines for things that actually happen at the same time. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 13:24, 24 April 2015 (EDT)


--Jeebus

* You know you can sign your name using 4 tildes, right?  And feel free to make an actual account on here.  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

=Redoing it=

I think it's great that you guys liked my list of when stuff happens enough to put it on the wiki, and are still debating my intentions in doing so in order to decide how to organize it. However, I think the page has gotten out of hand with too many subsections that don't really denote different timing and it's kind of losing sight of its purpose. I'm going to rewrite this list from scratch. [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 20:53, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
* Go for it. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 21:56, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
:: Thanks for doing the cleanup and catching that I missed Prince! [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 11:08, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
*** You're welcome!  [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 12:41, 29 April 2015 (EDT)

* Wow, you changed a lot. I think many of the changes were good. Less subsections and dropping the Events were good calls. However, some inconsistencies and errors have now been introduced. I'm not going to edit this anymore I think, but here are some things I noticed:

--- --- You can't say that all cards on mats go in deck at the end, because it breaks Distand Lands. See how it was done before.

--- --- "When you would play a card, first". There has been no ruling that the tokens activate at this time. It could also be just first out out of all "when play" effects. I mean, I think it would be better and clearer if it was "when-would-play", but Donald doesn't seem to be leaning that way.

--- --- I see no reason to have Expedition and Save at different times. See my previous comment. They are both effectively at end-of-turn.

--- --- "During your turn" is missing. Both Bridge Troll and the -$2 Cost token both are active at this time.

--- --- "Your Estates have the types and abilities of the set-aside card." Not accurate, or at least clear, since they also have their own type and ability. It must say "in addition" or something.

--- --- I see you dropped the notes about Duchess and Embargo being global rules with a reminder on the card. I think it's an important clarification, since cards are cumulative in Dominion.

--- --- It's not the Events (or Teacher) that have the effect of the tokens. They just move the tokens. Rather it's the tokens themselves. (Also, as worded now, these Events have the same problem as Duchess and Embargo.)

--- --- Some events have the prerequisite, others don't. "Plan: If the bought card has your Trashing token on it, you may trash a card from your hand." But: "–1 Card token: Lose the token instead." --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 16:43, 29 April 2015 (EDT)

:: 1. Fixed.
:: 2. At the time I wrote it last night, that was the most consistent interpretation of Donald's most recent ruling. Since right now he's discussing revising it, I'm going to hold off on changing this until he settles on a ruling.
:: 3. They're both "effectively" at end of turn, but I'm pretty sure as they're written you're obligated to resolve Expedition before resolving Save. I can't think of a situation in which it would matter with respect to Save, but note that Save and Possession have the same "end of turn" wording, and it ''does'' matter that you have to resolve Expedition before getting your trashed cards back from Possession.
:: 4. Hmm, yeah, that's true. I'm not crazy about the idea of having a single persistent effect listed with two separate timings that have to intersect, but maybe it's fine. I'll think about it.
:: 5. Fixed.
:: 6. I don't think that that's important to the topic of ''when'' these effects are resolved, which is all that this list is about.
:: 7. I suppose, but my default analytical stance in Dominion when possible is that ''everything'' is an effect of the cards (or Events), and the tokens are just there for bookkeeping. That's not always feasible—and hm, I did include the setup instructions for Trade Route here, even though that's ''obviously'' just bookkeeping—but I figure listing things in this index according to what cards (or Events) trigger them, when that's the simplest way to do it, is clearest.
:: 8. I don't think I understand what you mean here. For Plan / the Trashing token, the triggering effect is "when you buy a card". But the ability is only triggered if you buy a card from that specific pile, so that stipulation goes in the description of the ability. For the –1 Card token, the triggering effect is "when you would draw a card", and no further stipulation is necessary.
::[[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 18:06, 29 April 2015 (EDT)

::: 7. It's not consistent now at least. Look at the -1 Card token and -$1 token.
::: 8. The prerequisite for the -1 Card token is that it's on your deck. Otherwise it does nothing. There are in general three things: The timing, the prerequisite(s) and the effect. The timing has to be there. You could argue which of the other two should be included, but it should be consistent ideally. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 22:13, 29 April 2015 (EDT)

:::: 7. Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are these not consistent with each other, or not consistent with other tokens, or what? In any event, since multiple cards/Events use the same tokens, we are forced to bite the bullet and say that the effects here are effects of the tokens, not of the cards. But that's not the case for Ferry, Plan, and Inheritance.
:::: 8. Yes, the prerequisite for the –1 card token is that it must be on your deck, much as the prerequisite for Wharf is that it must have been played on the previous turn, and which for the sake of sanity is considered beyond the scope of this list. But for Plan, the prerequisite might be "the Trashing token is on a pile", but if the timing is "when you buy a card", the effect can't just be "you may trash a card from your hand" since it depends on ''which'' card you bought. So unless we want to have separate sub-sub-lists for "when you buy a card that the Trashing token is on", "when you buy a Duchy", "when you buy a Province", and so on—'''which we do not'''—then "if the bought card has the Trashing token on it" has to also be part of the effect. I thought about not even having the two sub-lists of "when you buy this" and "when you buy a card", and just having "when you buy a card" with effects like "if the bought card is a Farmland, trash…" and "if the bought card is a Port, gain…"; but I figured for the sake of conciseness having two sub-lists was okay. [[User:Ajd|Ajd]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 14:39, 30 April 2015 (EDT)

::::: 7. The -1 Card token and -$1 token are not consistent with how you described the other tokens. The other tokens (not just erry, Plan, and Inheritance) are described as effects of the cards. You could do this with the -1 Card token and -$1 token too, just list them under Bridge Troll etc... That would at least be consistent. But I think it's problematic listing them as effects of cards anyway. It's not the intention. The text in parenthesis is a reminder, not a rule on the event card.
::::: 8. Yeah, this is the problem with a list like this. It doesn't say when exactly the different triggers are in effect, although it's supposed to be about timing. It could just list all the triggers of course, just so we could see which effects trigger at the same time. That would mean dropping "If you set this aside" from Horse Traders (as the most obvious example), "If the card's supply pile has your token on it" etc, "If the Action is still in play" from Royal Carriage, "If it is the chosen card" from Scheme, "If it was played by Prince this turn" and "play the set aside action" (instead of "play the action") from Prince, "If this is in your deck" from Stash, "If the played card is an Action" from Champion, "If you have at least $2 unspent" from Wine Merchant, "If it is your turn"... Now these prerequisites are there, but others are missing, like the ones who tell you that you must have set up a trigger for it to be in effect, like for Possession, Mission, Scheme (start of clean-up), Prince (start of turn), Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Duration effects... and also states like for Bridge, Coppersmith, Contraband, Travelling Fair, Possession... You could drop all descriptions of having set up something I guess, since you mention that in the article. That would at least mean dropping it from Horse Traders, Prince and Scheme. Those are pure set-up effects, not actually checking anything when they trigger. Getting to the original point: If you argue that the Trashing token needs to check if you bought from its pile, it would be exactly the same for the -1 Card token. It needs to check whether it's on your pile. Does these checks trigger on-buy/on-draw or are the checks actually part of the trigger? It's like for Hoard. It triggers on-buy, but does it trigger on every buy, checking if it was a Victory card, or does it trigger just when you buy a Victory card? Functionally it's the same. But if it's part of the trigger, you need more subheadings, which you don't want. If it's not part of the trigger, you're introducing prerequisites that don't even have anything to do with being set up, so (if you want everything except description of how you set up things) I guess then they should all be included. I don't think this list was consistent before your big change either, but I think it was more so. --[[Special:Contributions/187.133.14.206|187.133.14.206]] 16:16, 30 April 2015 (EDT)

=Mistake=

I noticed another mistake: "(effects that change locations of other effects' gains, listed below, trigger afterwards)"

There are no effects like this. Watchtower and Royal Seal move the cards after they have been gained, they don't change the location, that's the reason they trigger afterwards. Since editing the wiki will just lead to ut being reverted with no explanation, I'll just note it here in case anyone wants to battle to get it corrected.

I also see that Urchin is again missing that it has to be in play. See previous discussion above. --[[Special:Contributions/189.157.61.11|189.157.61.11]] 10:57, 21 April 2016 (EDT)
* Feel free to make those changes.  And feel free to register as a user, Jeebus. [[User:Werothegreat|Werothegreat]] ([[User talk:Werothegreat|talk]]) 11:20, 22 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beginning of game and other setup effects ==

Should Ruins, Shelters, Platinum/Colony and Potion be included in the "beginning of game" section? [[User:ConMan|ConMan]] ([[User talk:ConMan|talk]]) 00:52, 4 May 2016 (EDT)