Debt: Difference between revisions
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* {{Debt}} amounts are something different from {{Cost}}.& | * {{Debt}} amounts are something different from {{Cost}}.  Math involving {{Cost}} amounts does not affect {{Debt}} amounts. | ||
* [Some cards look for a cost in a range.] | * [Some cards look for a cost in a range.] | ||
** ''Empires:''  {{Debt|4}} is not "up to {{Cost|4}}."  {{Debt|4}} is not more than {{Cost|4}}  and {{Cost|4}} is not more than {{Debt|4}};  both have something the other lacks. | ** ''Empires:''  {{Debt|4}} is not "up to {{Cost|4}}."  {{Debt|4}} is not more than {{Cost|4}}  and {{Cost|4}} is not more than {{Debt|4}};  both have something the other lacks. | ||
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** ''Empires:''  An amount of {{Cost}} and {{Debt}} is only larger than another if both the {{Cost}} and {{Debt}} amounts are larger, or one is larger and one the same. Amounts that do not specify {{Cost}} have {{Cost|0}}, and amounts that do not specify {{Debt}} have {{Debt|0}} (including all previous Dominion card costs). | ** ''Empires:''  An amount of {{Cost}} and {{Debt}} is only larger than another if both the {{Cost}} and {{Debt}} amounts are larger, or one is larger and one the same. Amounts that do not specify {{Cost}} have {{Cost|0}}, and amounts that do not specify {{Debt}} have {{Debt|0}} (including all previous Dominion card costs). | ||
** <p>''Rising Sun:''  A card costing {{Debt|8}} costs more than one costing {{Debt|6}}, just like one costing {{Cost|8}} costs more than one costing {{Cost|6}}.  However debt {{Cost}} and are not comparable. With a card costing {{Cost|4}} and a card costing {{Debt|6}}, neither costs more than the other.  {{Debt|6}} does however cost more than {{Cost|0}}; there is an implicit {{Cost|0}} in all pure {{Debt}} costs, so {{Debt|6}} costs the same amount of {{Cost}} as {{Cost|0}}, and more {{Debt}}.</p> | ** <p>''Rising Sun:''  A card costing {{Debt|8}} costs more than one costing {{Debt|6}}, just like one costing {{Cost|8}} costs more than one costing {{Cost|6}}.  However debt {{Cost}} and are not comparable. With a card costing {{Cost|4}} and a card costing {{Debt|6}}, neither costs more than the other.  {{Debt|6}} does however cost more than {{Cost|0}}; there is an implicit {{Cost|0}} in all pure {{Debt}} costs, so {{Debt|6}} costs the same amount of {{Cost}} as {{Cost|0}}, and more {{Debt}}.</p> | ||
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | {| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | ||
| <h5>Examples</h5> | | <h5>Examples</h5> | ||
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<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
<li>''Empires:''  {{Card|Knights|link=Knight}} (from {{Set|Dark Ages|Dominion: Dark Ages}}) trash cards costing from {{Cost|3}} to {{Cost|6}}. That never includes cards with {{Debt}} in the cost. | <li>''Empires:''  {{Card|Knights|link=Knight}} (from {{Set|Dark Ages|Dominion: Dark Ages}}) trash cards costing from {{Cost|3}} to {{Cost|6}}. That never includes cards with {{Debt}} in the cost. | ||
<li>''Rising Sun:''  {{Card|Change}} can't gain a {{Card|Mountain Shrine}}, no matter what you trash, because Mountain Shrine doesn't cost any {{Cost}}. | <li>''Rising Sun:''  {{Card|Change}} can't gain a {{Card|Mountain Shrine}}, no matter what you trash, because Mountain Shrine doesn't cost any {{Cost}}. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
<li>''Empires:'' {{Card|Trader}} (from {{Set|Hinterlands|ed=2|Dominion: Hinterlands}}) trashes a card and gives a {{Card|Silver}} per {{Cost|1}} it cost. {{Card|Trader}} trashing {{Card|Fortune}} would give 8 Silvers for the {{Cost|8}}, and no additional Silvers for the {{Debt|8}}. | <li>''Empires:''  {{Card|Trader}} (from {{Set|Hinterlands|ed=2|Dominion: Hinterlands}}) trashes a card and gives a {{Card|Silver}} per {{Cost|1}} it cost. {{Card|Trader}} trashing {{Card|Fortune}} would give 8 Silvers for the {{Cost|8}}, and no additional Silvers for the {{Debt|8}}. | ||
<li>''Rising Sun:''  {{Card|Tanuki}} trashing an {{Card|Artist}} can gain a {{Card|Daimyo}}, because Daimyo does cost "up to {{Cost|2}} and {{Debt|8}}." | |||
</ul> | </ul> | ||
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|Text=Okay so Debt. That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe. While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or [[Event]]s. Those are the only things you can't do; you can still play cards, including the one that got you into Debt if you draw that one; you can still trash cards and get attacked and win the game and so on. You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at {{Cost|1}} per token. So, you have {{Cost|4}}, you buy City Quarter, you get {{Debt|8}}, you pay off {{Debt|4}} of it immediately, you have {{Debt|4}} left. In your next Buy phase, if you had {{Cost|6}}, you could pay off the rest of your {{Debt}} and then have {{Cost|2}} left to spend. Get it? It's pretty simple. The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like {{Cost||||P}}: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than {{Cost|3}}. There's a rulebook, okay? It covers all the tricky things. And uh why a hexagon, why that color? The physical tokens are reddish hexagons. | |Text=Okay so Debt. That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe. While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or [[Event]]s. Those are the only things you can't do; you can still play cards, including the one that got you into Debt if you draw that one; you can still trash cards and get attacked and win the game and so on. You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at {{Cost|1}} per token. So, you have {{Cost|4}}, you buy City Quarter, you get {{Debt|8}}, you pay off {{Debt|4}} of it immediately, you have {{Debt|4}} left. In your next Buy phase, if you had {{Cost|6}}, you could pay off the rest of your {{Debt}} and then have {{Cost|2}} left to spend. Get it? It's pretty simple. The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like {{Cost||||P}}: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than {{Cost|3}}. There's a rulebook, okay? It covers all the tricky things. And uh why a hexagon, why that color? The physical tokens are reddish hexagons. | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15357.0 Empires Previews #1: Debt] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15357.0 Empires Previews #1: Debt, May 2016] | ||
}} | }} | ||
=== Secret History === | === Secret History === | ||
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|Text=I had Debt from the start (and it had been in the ideas file for years). The first version though was a word on cards, "Debt," that meant you didn't need the {{Cost}} to buy the card, but went into Debt. The Debt tokens worked the same way as they do now. One day I thought of using a symbol, and the cards changed to things like "When you gain this during your turn, take [red coin with a 10 on it]." They were like that for a while, before finally I put the symbol into the [[cost]]. With Debt a significant concern was that you could just buy the card turn one, and if that was good it seemed like the game could be too scripted. So the big Debt cards always tried to not be good turn one, although it took a while to really get there. Originally the cards could all be bought with {{Cost|0}}, and in the end some have {{Cost}} costs too. | |Text=I had Debt from the start (and it had been in the ideas file for years). The first version though was a word on cards, "Debt," that meant you didn't need the {{Cost}} to buy the card, but went into Debt. The Debt tokens worked the same way as they do now. One day I thought of using a symbol, and the cards changed to things like "When you gain this during your turn, take [red coin with a 10 on it]." They were like that for a while, before finally I put the symbol into the [[cost]]. With Debt a significant concern was that you could just buy the card turn one, and if that was good it seemed like the game could be too scripted. So the big Debt cards always tried to not be good turn one, although it took a while to really get there. Originally the cards could all be bought with {{Cost|0}}, and in the end some have {{Cost}} costs too. | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15660.0 The Secret History of the Empires Cards] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15660.0 The Secret History of the Empires Cards, June 2016] | ||
}} | }} | ||
=== Why are there no Debt attacks? === | === Why are there no Debt attacks? === | ||
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|Text=It was obvious that you could try to give out {{Debt}} with an attack. You want it to be like {{Card|Swamp Hag}}, because otherwise, you could lock players out, and if you tone it down enough that you aren't doing that, it looks like {{Card|Bridge Troll}} giving out the -{{Cost|1}} token, which we already have; the big difference is it's cumulative with {{Card|Bridge Troll}}, which isn't great. And well I did do {{Event|Tax}}. It's kind of a dud though I enjoy the set-up, the set-up is what kept it alive. | |Text=It was obvious that you could try to give out {{Debt}} with an attack. You want it to be like {{Card|Swamp Hag}}, because otherwise, you could lock players out, and if you tone it down enough that you aren't doing that, it looks like {{Card|Bridge Troll}} giving out the -{{Cost|1}} token, which we already have; the big difference is it's cumulative with {{Card|Bridge Troll}}, which isn't great. And well I did do {{Event|Tax}}. It's kind of a dud though I enjoy the set-up, the set-up is what kept it alive. | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17785.msg728954#msg728954 Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17785.msg728954#msg728954 Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village, October 2017] | ||
}} | }} | ||
=== Why aren't there more cards that refer to debt? === | === Why aren't there more cards that refer to debt? === | ||
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There were Remodels that involved debt; they didn't work out. See the Secret History. | There were Remodels that involved debt; they didn't work out. See the Secret History. | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg675008#msg675008 Interview with Donald X.] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg675008#msg675008 Interview with Donald X., February 2017] | ||
}} | }} | ||
=== Applications to past cards === | === Applications to past cards === | ||
{{Quote|Text= If I had tried debt earlier, or made 10 expansions before any were published, I could have given some other things {{Debt}}. Debt is tricky so probably very few cards would make the leap. It would be more about "let's have a few more {{Debt}} cards" than "this card would be better with {{Debt}}." Nothing stands out as an obvious good fit. | {{Quote|Text= If I had tried debt earlier, or made 10 expansions before any were published, I could have given some other things {{Debt}}. Debt is tricky so probably very few cards would make the leap. It would be more about "let's have a few more {{Debt}} cards" than "this card would be better with {{Debt}}." Nothing stands out as an obvious good fit. | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg612860#msg612860 Interview with Donald X.] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg612860#msg612860 Interview with Donald X., June 2016] | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{Quote|Text= Yes this is better-to-use than the -{{Cost|1}} token, though {{Event|Ball}} would be {{Cost|5}} and {{Debt|1}}, not {{Cost|4}}. I don't imagine {{Debt}} would find a lot of other use; those {{Debt|8}} cards were tricky. However the {{Card|Engineer}} trick could come in handy elsewhere (since it costs {{Debt}}, it can't gain itself). | {{Quote|Text= Yes this is better-to-use than the -{{Cost|1}} token, though {{Event|Ball}} would be {{Cost|5}} and {{Debt|1}}, not {{Cost|4}}. I don't imagine {{Debt}} would find a lot of other use; those {{Debt|8}} cards were tricky. However the {{Card|Engineer}} trick could come in handy elsewhere (since it costs {{Debt}}, it can't gain itself). | ||
|Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | |Name=[[Donald X. Vaccarino]] | ||
|Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18180.msg742782#msg742782 How would old cards be made differently with new mechanics?] | |Source=[http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18180.msg742782#msg742782 How would old cards be made differently with new mechanics?, January 2018] | ||
}} | }} | ||
Latest revision as of 17:40, 30 September 2024
Debt (represented by the symbol cost for some cards and Events in Empires and Rising Sun. It allows the buyer to take tokens instead of paying the full cost of the card. Players who have tokens may not buy cards, Events, or Projects. tokens can be removed from a player by paying per token at any time during their turn.
) is an alternateA cost in
is orthogonal to a cost in a ; cards with in their cost do not cost less or more than cards with a cost. and are similarly not comparable.Empires and Rising Sun both come with 40 Debt tokens, but the mechanic is not intended to be component-limited.
List of card-shaped things using Debt
Debt as a cost
Engineer
Mountain Shrine, Triumph
Daimyo
Annex, Artist, City Quarter, Continue, Donate, Overlord, Royal Blacksmith
Wedding
Fortune
Other sources of debt
- Craftsman, Imperial Envoy, Litter, and Root Cellar give when you play them.
- Change, Gold Mine, and Root Cellar can put you in debt when you play them.
- Capital does not incur debt when it is bought, but when it is cleaned up from play—in effect, allowing you to buy other things for instead of that turn.
- Credit allows you to gain a card and take corresponding to its cost in .
- Tax adds to any Supply pile when bought, and has a Setup rule where all Supply piles start with . When Tax is in the game, when you gain a card in your Buy phase, you take the on its pile.
- Mountain Pass is a Landmark where players bid for 8 , taking the they bid if they win.
- Harsh Winter gains the from piles when gaining cards during your turns, or adds to the pile if there was none. Note that unlike Tax, taking is not limited to the Buy phase.
Official Rules
- Having Debt tokens prevents a player from buying cards or Events; Debt tokens do nothing else (for example they have no effect at the end of the game).
- Buying a card or Event with in its cost gives the player that many Debt tokens.
- A player can remove Debt tokens at any point in their turn by paying per Debt token to remove it.
- Removing Debt does not use up a Buy [or an Action, and can be done multiple times in a turn. This does not let players play Treasures at any time.]
Examples |
|
- amounts are something different from . Math involving amounts does not affect amounts.
- [Some cards look for a cost in a range.]
- Empires: is not "up to ." is not more than and is not more than ; both have something the other lacks.
Rising Sun: "Up to
means " , , , , or "; it does not include costs with in them.
- [Some cards compare costs.]
- Empires: An amount of and is only larger than another if both the and amounts are larger, or one is larger and one the same. Amounts that do not specify have , and amounts that do not specify have (including all previous Dominion card costs).
Rising Sun: A card costing
costs more than one costing , just like one costing costs more than one costing . However debt and are not comparable. With a card costing and a card costing , neither costs more than the other. does however cost more than ; there is an implicit in all pure costs, so costs the same amount of as , and more .
Examples |
|
- Players cannot just take Debt tokens for no reason.
- Players cannot overpay with Debt (for Dominion: Guilds cards).
- Debt tokens are not counter-limited; players should use a replacement if they run out.
Possession (from Dominion: Alchemy) now has errata that causes it to also give the Possessing player all Debt tokens the Possessed player would get.
Prior official rules (amended by the release of the Rising Sun expansion)
- A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.
Gallery
Cost debt
Other uses of debt
Trivia
In other languages
- Finnish: Velka
- German: Schulden
- Polish: Dług
Preview
Secret History
Why are there no Debt attacks?
Why aren't there more cards that refer to debt?
Applications to past cards